Copyright 1994  THE BERKELEY GROUP

JULY 3, 1994

We've seen some objects doing amazing maneuvers.  What's 
that about?

Uh, I've s-seen a lot of videotapes of-of moving lights taken 
from the Black Mailbox.  And I've not found any of them that 
are convincing.  Uh, the fact that the people aren't considering 
is-is the camera movement.  If you have no reference points 
within the frame, we don't know if it's the object that's moving 
or the camera.

Who exactly is this base secret from?

Obviously, all our potential enemies know about Groom Lake.  
There are satellite images that are widely available.  There's, 
uh, news reports on Groom Lake.  The only people this base is 
being kept secret from are the American people.

Tell me a little about the open sky treaty.  You were talking 
about the Russian satellites.  How can they have satellites at 
the secret base?

The United States, uh, has signed a treaty called the Treaty of 
Open Skies, which explicitly allows signatory coun-countries to 
overfly any part of the other country.  Uh, countries like Russia 
and our other former communist enemies are specifically 
allowed to overfly places like Groom Lake and take all the 
pictures they want.  These people certainly know about Groom 
Lake.  The only people that aren't allowed these pictures are 
the American people.

The Russians have photographs.  The French have photographs.  
You can buy photographs from the U.S. Geology Service, but yet 
the American people aren't allowed to know about this base.

Obviously, the existence of the base is not secret from anyone. 
Uh, you can buy satellite images from the Russians, the French.  
You can even now buy a satellite photo of Groom Lake from our 
own government, through the U.S.G.S.  Uh, foreign countries can 
overfly Groom as part of the Open Skies Treaty.  Uh, obviously, 
they can't overfly at any time.  There-there is...
The United States has, uh, signed a treaty called the Treaty of 
Open Skies, which allows signatory countries explicitly to 
overfly any part of a signatory's territory, to take, uh, satellite...

Why Area 51?  Why is Glenn Campbell here?

I came here interested in the UFO stories.  I heard through the 
UFO literature that there was this mysterious location, this 
Black Mailbox on a remote desert highway where you could 
come on any Wednesday night and see flying saucers on 
demand.  So I came and I saw, and I saw spectacular lights in 
the sky, which I eventually learned how to dismiss.  These 
were- the lights that I saw were routine military activity.  Uh, 
people don't understand that this-this is a war zone.  There are 
exercises going on here all the time. And these exercises 
involve flares, they involve dogfights, they involve bombing.  
All sorts of aerial lights.  That if you're in the mind to see UFO's, 
you will see them.  

Then you left and then you came back.  And after you 
dismissed those stories, what then hooked you to stay there?

After my initial visit, I felt that I had dismissed the UFO stories 
here.  Everything I saw was conventional.  But at some point I 
realized that I wasn't getting the whole story.  The story was 
more subtle than that.  I heard of sightings and-and reports 
that really didn't fit what I had seen.  Uh, I-I came back here a 
second time, and happened to run into some aviation watchers, 
who were looking for nice, solid airplanes.  They were looking 
for the Aurora, not an- not a- not a, uh, alien craft at all.  Yet 
they still believed the UFO stories.  They believed the Lazarre 
story.  And that got me to thinking that I had to come back 
here and investigate further.

And have you investigated that further?  The Lazarre story.

The Lazarre story is fascinating no matter how you slice it.  If 
it's a fraud, it's a very good fraud, that- it is perfectly tailored 
to this area.  Uh, i-if you were to put a secret saucer base 
anywhere in the world, this would be a good place to do it, 
whether it be fact or fiction.

Tell me about the story about you have met a lot of people, and 
you met some ex-workers, or supposed ex-workers.  The one 
story that stuck in my mind was the German scientist, who 
when they were playing cards.

I've heard a lot of secondhand stories, stories that don't prove 
anything but that keep me intrigued.  One of, uh, one of the 
people I've talked to is a worker who worked at the nuclear 
test site back in the sixties.  And he says that people who 
talked to him, told him that they worked with the craft and 
could explain the propulsion systems.  Uh, he says that he saw 
these craft himself from great- at great distances.  This is back 
in the sixties.  Uh, m- sightings can be mistaken, and people 
who aren't alive today, you can't cross-cross-check their-their 
testimony.  But the fact that these stories don't go away, they 
keep coming up and coming up, makes me want to look into 

Tell me a little bit about the Whitesides Defense Committee?  
What exactly is it that you're trying to accomplish?  What's 
Glenn Campbell here for?

The-the important issue to me at the moment, the mo- the-the 
issue that has really crystallized the issues here, is, uh, the 
seizure of this land.  Uh, I-I have formed a, uh, a group, a small 
group, called the Whitesides Defense Committee that is fighting 
to retain this land, keep it for the public, precisely for the same 
reason that the government wants to take it.  We want to be 
able to look down on Groom Lake.  We want to have that 

What measures will you go to defend Freedom Ridge?

I would not be surprised that if, ultimately, the government 
did get this land.  The important thing is we're using it right 
now as a tool, a tool to generate publicity, a tool to, uh, involve 
ourselves in the process of opening up this base.  Uh, the air 
force wanted to take this land to keep its base secret.  And the 
great irony is it's doing the opposite.  It's exposing this base.

How could the air force put an end to you being here?  What 
would make you pack your bags tomorrow and leave?

I think the best thing that the air force could do right now is 
simply admit that they have a base out there.  They can say, 
"yes, we have a base.  It's a- it's a secret facility that's used to 
develop secret aircraft.  We can't tell you everything that's 
going out there.  But yes, we have it."  That would go a long 
way to diffusing the attention and the publicity that's been 
attracted to this area.

When we had spoken about, again, the air force taking this 
minuscule four thousand acres, why do they want these four 
thousand acres? Why is it these when they have, whatever this 
is, we talked about four thousand square miles.  Why four 
thousand acres?

The-the amount of land involved in this withdrawal is 
relatively small.  We're talking four thousand acres, when the 
whole Nellis Range complex is four thousand square miles.  It's 
a very small amount of land if looked at by itself.  But the real 
reason that they're taking this land is-is very significant.  And 
although the land itself is not much, it-it's an important- it's an 
important pi-political parcel of land.  Uh, it's the land that 
proves to the world that-that the base exists, because anyone 
can go down there and look at it.

What is the government saying?  Because they're not telling 
the truth about why they're actually acquiring the land, are 

The air force says that it wants this land, quote, for the public 
safety and for the safe operations of the Nellis Bombing Range. 
This is- this is plainly a lie.  It's not the truth.  The public 
safety is not risked by climbing up to the top of these hills.  
And the Area 51 has nothing to do with the Nellis Bombing 
Range.  What we want the air force to do before they get this 
land is simply give us the real reason.  They're taking this land 
because it overlooks the secret base.

Other than taking the land, how will that affect the American 

If the air force gets this land, then the American taxpayer will 
not be able to climb these hills and look down on the base.  The 
irony is there will still be other viewpoints, further away, but 
still within direct line of sight where you can still see the base.  
If they take these near-in viewpoints, then people are gonna 
move to the far-out viewpoints and still see the base and still 
compromise national security if-if that's what the-the air force 
feels.  If the air force is gonna take any of this land, then 
logically it should take all the viewpoints.  In 1984, the air 
force seized eighty-nine thousand acres, the entire Groom 
Mountain Range, to keep people from looking down on the 
secret base.  But they-they forgot four thousand acres.  
There's-there's these little hills that people forgot.  The 
government screwed up.  Now, the government is trying to 
take these four thousand acres, but it's overlooking even 
further viewpoints. We say if the government is gonna-gonna 
do a job, it should do it right and take all the viewpoints.  Only 
then would the job be done.

How far will the government go?  

The go- the government is limited in this land action.  They can 
only take up to five thousand acres without Congressional 
approval. Of course, the last thing the air force wants to do is to 
go to Congress.  That's-that's a place where the whole secret 
base could be debated.  Uh, so they're-they're tailoring their-
their land withdrawal to-to under five thousand acres to pre- 
supposedly, to prevent, uh, a lot of, um, Congressional review...

Can you tell us who Agent X is?

Agent X is a shadowy figure who turns up on my doorstep 
every once in a while, after having spent several days out in- 
out in the desert.  I'm not sure what he sees out there in the 
desert, but I can tell you, he's got all the gear.  He's got the 
night vision goggles.  He's got the camo suit.  He's one, uh, well 
equipped dude.

Could you tell me about the scanner?  I think there's a little 
story about the scanners.  Maybe set up the scanners and 
....recorded something.

There are all sorts of different people, uh, who are interested in 
Groom Lake.  You have the, uh, the air craft buffs who are out 
there looking for secret air craft.  You have the UFO, uh, buffs 
looking for UFO's.  You have the scanner buffs who, uh, have 
their scanners running all the time trying to listen to whatever 
radio traffic there may be.  There-there must be a lot of radio 
traffic for-for a facility of this size.  Uh, there must be, uh, 
shuttle-shuttle jets talking to other-other jets.  There-there 
must be controllers talking to planes, and-and ground traffic 
of-of routine maintenance and security.  Uh, so part of hanging 
out here is-is to listen to the radio a-and see whatever- what 
you can pick up.  And sometimes you pick up some interesting 

Such as?

Well, for many months, the-the security patrols, uh, broadcast 
in the clear.  In other words, we could listen to them talk about 
us. And if they said they were going to one part of the range, 
we would go to another part of the range.  A few months ago, 
they caught on and they started scrambling their broadcasts.  
But every once in a while, they-they mess up and-and you can 
still listen to them talk about you.

Didn't you have an encounter with a helicopter?


Can you describe that?

I've had a number of encounters with-with the big Blackhawk 
helicopter.  Uh, typically, we're-we're wandering around in the-
near the border, and the security dudes are following us on-o- 
in-in their patrols.  And if they happen to lose us, if we happen 
to, quote, vanish, then- and they can't find us, then they may 
call out the helicopter.  Uh, we've had a number of-of cases 
where the helicopter has-has searched far and wide to try to 
find us.  And then when they do find us, they come down real 
low and blast us real good, just to- just as their way of saying, 
"Ha!  We found you."

Describe that when they come down and blast you.  What 

On several occasions, these helicopters have come down real, 
real low, I mean within about twenty or thirty feet.  And when 
you have a-a huge machine like this right over you, it kicks up 
dust and dirt, and it really can be quite dangerous.  It is, in 
fact, against the air force's own regulation to operate a 
helicopter below five hundred feet within a, uh, within the 
range of a-a pedestrian or a building.  They're violating their 
own regulations by doing this.

What do you think they're saying?  Do you think they're just 
saying "don't forget we're here?"

It's a cat and mouse game.  They realize it-it's a game.  We 
realize it's a game.  Uh, if we vanish on them, and they have to 
hunt for us, they come down real low with the helicopter to tell 
us "Ha!  We found you.  Game's over."

This is a pretty serious game, though, isn't it?

I-I really feel- personally, ha, to be chased by the big 
helicopter and to know at the end I'm not going to be shot, it's 
kind of exciting, you know.  They-they're-they're violating 
their rules by blasting us.  At the same time, you know, we get 
the- an adrenaline rush from that sort of thing.

About the controls being put on the government about it being 
a Constitutional issue.  We had spoken about that.  If you don't 
put controls on the government, what happens?  (Misc.)  Are 
you concerned with controls being put on the government?

What happens if the government is not under control?

I think this is a very important philosophical issue.  Uh, I-I 
think the-the authors of our Constitution recognize the dangers 
of big government, and-and the dangers when government is 
allowed to do whatever it wants.  So they've build certain 
safeguards into the Constitution requiring checks and balances 
on the government.  Right here, we have a base that doesn't 
exist so the government can do anything it wants out there.  
That's a very frightening thing in-in a Constitutional sense.  The 
go- the people have to have some control, some say, over what 
the government is doing in all its spheres.

How much do they know about you?  Do they have a file on 

I'm-I'm sure my name is well known.  I-I've heard that they 
even know of me in the Pentagon.  I'm sure that I have a-a file 
at least that thick.  But that doesn't really solve the problem, 
knowing much about me.  I-I'm talk...

Are you more or less of a threat to them than, say, a UFO geek 
or something?

I-I think some parts- some parts of the military may regard 
me as a threat.  Certainly, the security dudes don't like me very 
much.  I think that other parts of the military recognize what 
I'm trying to do and recognize that-that it is honorable.  Uh, I'm 
fighting to-to free the military from many of its own 
restrictions.  The military i-is bound up in its own bureaucracy, 
in its own security restrictions.  I think people in the military 
recognize that the military has to change to meet the-the new 
state of the world.  But the military is slow to change.  I'm 
trying to give the military a push.

Where is Freedom Ridge?  How do you get there?  And what's 
on the way?

These yellow areas are the areas that the-the government's 
trying to seize.  Uh, one of these, uh, the southern one, is 
Freedom Ridge. Uh, that point marks Freedom Ridge there.  Uh, 
there's a four-wheel-drive road running up toward Freedom 
Ridge, through what we call Sensor Alley, because there's seven 
road sensors along this path. Uh, we'll go up through a, uh, 
narrow canyon, uh, over, uh, an illegal road block, which we 
have managed to breach, and then we'll go up a ridge to-to 
Freedom Ridge here.  This is about, uh, a few hundred yards 
from the actual military border.

So generally when you go to Freedom Ridge, do you go in four-
wheel drive and then hike up?  Or do you drive all the way up?

I sort of see myself as the-the maintainer of trail, so I will- uh, 
very often I'll-I'll drive up, and other times I'll hike up, just to 
make sure the trail markers are there.

Do you want to point out the relation to the base?  


Freedom Ridge is approximately, uh, twelve to thirteen miles 
from the-the actual base itself, which is down here.  Uh, we're-
we're along the shore of-of the Groom Dry Lake, up against the 
Papoose Mountains right here.  Uh, the air strip here, uh, is 
about seven miles long.  It's reputed to be the longest air strip 
in the world.
The government is seizing these, uh, these blocks shown in 
yellow here, but they're ignoring another viewpoint out to the 
east.  Uh, that's Tikabu(sp?) Peak and the adjoining mountains 
of Badger Mountains.  Uh, when the governments takes the-the 
near-in viewpoints, we'll simply go out to the further 
viewpoints and see the base from there.
This is the actual land boundary of Area 51.  We're within a- 
Area 51 itself is a small section that was once part of a Nevada 
test site.  It's surrounded by a buffer zone, uh, which is 
technically part of the Nellis Bombing Range.  So at the point 
where we walk up to the military border, we'll be walking up 
to the bombing range, not actually up to Area 51.  That's 
another five miles beyond.  This is the- this is a chart of the air 
space in the area.  Uh, Area 51 is a relatively small block of 
land.  It's surrounded by a-a large off-limits, uh, air space 
known as Dreamland.  And-and pilots actually use that term.  
Uh, that-that, uh, extends well outside the boundary.  So at the 
point where we're at Freedom Ridge, we'll actually be within 
the Dreamland air space.  Military pilots are not allowed to fly 
in this area.  Only if you have a specific reason to go to Area 51 
will you ever intrude into this air space.

Is that the kind of testing that goes on?

Essentially, all these- all this area, uh, of the Nellis Bombing 
Range, it's-it's an active bombing range.  They'll be dogfights, 
they'll be bombing, they'll be ground maneuvers.  However, 
this box in the middle, uh, with Groom Lake at its center, that's 
off-limits even to most military pilots.  You cannot fly there 
unless you have specific authorization to go to Area 51.  And 
very few planes have that.  

I have an air chart here, which the only government air chart 
that actually shows a-an air strip at Groom Lake.  It's not 
much- it's not much to look at.  Here we are.