Area 51 Mailing List Digest v001.n006
Sep 14, 1996


Index

01 - Dave B <bethland@ix.netco - Re: AREA 51: Alien Activity in Utah, Arizona? 02 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gl - Activity at Navajo Army Depot, Flagstaff, AZ 03 - jedininja@juno.com (TOM T - Re: AREA 51: Early Wind Tunnel Tests on Flying Saucers? 04 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gl - Groom Lake Runway History (?), Follow-Up 05 - Bill Bailey <billsf@earth - Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses 06 - nobody@nowhere.org - Curious about your motives 07 - Mike Galloway <mike@ctaz. - Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses 08 - Dave B <bethland@ix.netco - Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses 09 - Bill Bailey <billsf@earth - Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses 10 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gl - AREA 51: now Fort Huachuca, Az?
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Message #1

From: Dave B <bethland@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: AREA 51: Alien Activity in Utah, Arizona? Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:19:03 -0500 > >From: Bill Swearingen <BSWEARIN@folio.com> > > > >> > >>I live in Spanish Fork, Utah and what is being discussed is the FingerHut > >>Manufacturing plant. > From one of Fingerhut's SEC 10-K filings.... (early 1995) " In order to improve efficiency and accommodate future growth, the Company is constructing a new 185,000 square foot data and technology center in Plymouth, Minnesota, which is expected to open in mid-1995. In addition, the Company has begun constructing a one million square foot warehouse and distribution center in Spanish Fork, Utah." Dave B in Houston

Message #2

From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Activity at Navajo Army Depot, Flagstaff, AZ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:56:03 -0700 [A correspondent who wishes to remain anonymous writes...] The latest digest that I saw on your web page raised a flag with me due to coincidence. Specifically, the message area51.v001.n005.10 , from "A.J. Craddock" (craddock@ix.netcom.com> I think base he appears to be talking about isn't Camp (?). It's the Navajo Army Depot, outside of Flagstaff, Arizona. The reason I say this is that in researching a completely different military- related topic I ran across reliable eyewitnesses reports of activity involving large numbers of trucks leaving the depot with loads of dirt and returning empty, nearly every day for months, yet no obvious contruction of this scale is apparent at the facility. I'm assuming that these reports indicate a large amount of underground construction has taken place there in the last two years, unless the army was storing dirt. (Could happen!) Other curiousities is the the facility has a pretty obvious radome (assumed for air traffic control radar) at the entrance. As I only recently became aware of this, I don't know if this is a new artifact or not. Other than the radome, from the outside it pretty much looks like a mini-storage facility on steroids. Note that even without any special construction, you could easily hide lots of material there--UFOs, spy planes, or dirt. One old- timer I talked to said that when he was in the facility decades ago, the warehouses were filled to the ceiling with rubber, and that something like one-sixth of the US stockpile of natural rubber was there at the time. I'm incredibly sceptical of the UFO remains story, and I probably wouldn't have sent this message if that's what I'd heard, but the notion that something new is being stored there makes perfect sense: it's a storage area, and they've apparently created more space in the near past. The other possible facility that Mr. Craddock is looking for the Fort Huachuka. This facility is where a lot of army intelligence gathering takes place, as well as testing of new electronic equipment. There's been rumors on the net (again, skepticism is in great need) that the fort is where some of the alledged alien remains from Wright-Patterson wound up.

Message #3

From: jedininja@juno.com (TOM T HUSTON) Subject: Re: AREA 51: Early Wind Tunnel Tests on Flying Saucers? Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:54:37 EDT On Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:24:42 Glenn Campbell writes: >The item below is re-posted here as relevant to military >UFO cover-ups. Messages about _specific_ government documents >or organizations seem appropriate for this list > ( These EEI are referred to in the Sept. 24, 1947 letter >from Lt. General Nathan Twining, Chief of AMC, to Brig. Gen. George >Schulgen... see Appendix R of the Condon Report. And of course September 24, 1947 was the date MJ12 was (allegedly) initiated, and General Twining was a member. Very interesting that he should write a letter on that date in related to flying saucers... -Tom Huston

Message #4

From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Groom Lake Runway History (?), Follow-Up Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:13:08 -0700 [I got this reply back from the author of the previously posted "Groom Lake Runway History." --GC] From: RobertTHC@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:57:50 -0400 To: campbell@ufomind.com cc: RobertTHC@aol.com Subject: G.L. RUNWAYS HISTORY Follow-up. Glenn -- Just read your email dated 96-09-04 22:48:57 EDT. I was in Idaho and Nevada September 4 through 11, stopping at Rachel early afternoon the 10th. Picked up 4 zeroxes of the Groom/Papoose Lakes high altitude photo from your Area 51 Office. That photo (dated ???) is the first opportunity for an independent check on the locations cited in the article. The article is result of an experimental mechanism for locating things. It is embryonic; errors are detectable only through independent check. No claim is made to infallibility. (Perhaps a short Editor's Note to the article?) The first published result of the mechanism appeared in the UFO JOURNAL, February 1990 Issue, pages 5 through 15, in the original blue-cover digest-size release. (Address: NICUFO, 14617 Victor Blvd, Suite Four, Van Nuys, CA 91411. Phone (818) 989-5942.) I have visited your website. Which of the 10 "General Knowledge" categories would the publication be under, and any idea when ? Or am I much too late. Robert Hover ----- [An anonymous skeptic writes....] Subject: Re: G.L. RUNWAYS HISTORY Follow-up. To: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:43:47 -0700 (PDT) I'm sure curious just what the "mechanism" is he's using to get his info. My guess it's the "ACME Wild-Ass Guess Fantasmatron". [The skeptic does find a few of the coordinates interesting, though. -- GC] +------ U F O M I N D -------+ | Glenn Campbell campbell@ufomind.com | | AREA 51 RESEARCH CENTER - Las Vegas & Rachel, Nevada | | UFOs - Gov't Secrets - Philosophy - Psychology | |
http://www.ufomind.com Box 448, Rachel, NV 89001 | +------------------------------------------------------+

Message #5

From: Bill Bailey <billsf@earthlink.net> Subject: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:45:16 -0700 I wanted to write and express a dissenting opinion with regard to the publication of the names and addresses of the "Cammo Dudes" at the Groom Lake facility on the UFOMIND website. While not wholly attached to this point of view (and perhaps I could be convinced otherwise) there seems to be an element of irresponsibility here. I guess my question would be, how do we profit, and what do we do with this information? Groom Lake/Area 51 as officially a "non-entity" is absolutely shrouded in secrecy. Probably more is not known, than is actually known about what goes on out there ( some 100 miles from where I live) What I understand about this private security force, is that they are a private entity, no doubt either Wackenhut, or EG&G. Though they are nameless, they are more than likely under the chain of command of Nellis AFB or the Groom Lake Command. While they are a type of secret police, at times engaging in questionable and probably illegal tactics, I'm not entirely certain that individual members can be held accountable for their actions. Why not, you say? Because quite probably, they are simply following orders. Historically, that reminds us of the guards at Auschwitz or Buchenwald whose excuse was they were only "following orders." But that comparison is weak, at best. It occurs to me, that policy is established at a higher, unknown level. It's very interesting that this revelation does pierce the "veil of secrecy" about Groom Lake, but that's about it. During the height of the Anti-war Movement of the 1960's, I saw an incident where the names of certain members of the Chicago Police Dept. "Red Squad" were published in a local paper. The end result was that their homes and families were subject to intimidation and harassment. While there's no love lost here for the Chicago Red Squad or the Cammo dudes, the reality seems to be these are more than likely just working stiffs trying to pay off a mortgage and make a car payment. Probably a lousy career choice, but some of them may have ex-law enforcement or military backgrounds and probably think they fit right in wilth an occupation like this. I don't very well hold them individually resposible for some of the stuff that happens out at Dreamland. I'm fairly certain they are quite accountable to a strict chain of command, and who these folks are, we may very well never know. They are the one's who set policy and codes of conduct for this elite private security force. These guys are nothing more than mercanaries, hired guards. Though it can be said, "knowledge is power" what do we do with this information? Though it's interesting to know, is there a possible downside to all this? In any business, I may complain about individual employees, but I hold management responsible. Why not the same thing here? All the above, one man's opinion. I'd be interested to hear some others. Regards, Bill

Message #6

From: nobody@nowhere.org Subject: Curious about your motives Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:16:32 -0700 I'd prefer to remain anonymous. Hope you don't mind. I'm wondering if the primary motivation of this group is curiosity or if there is a specific gripe with the Air Force? It seems to me that if you accept that it is proper for the DoD to keep details of it's latest technology secret, that a ``non-existent'' base in Nevada would be the way to go. (that's a big ``if,'' but that's another argument) If you believe they've got aliens and alien spacecraft (I don't) then I guess you could argue that the public and the world should know. But what if all it is is a secret place to test our newest hardware? Could the effort you are making to lift the shroud from Groom Lake serve to weaken our Nation's security? --Nobody

Message #7

From: Mike Galloway <mike@ctaz.net> Subject: Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:39:00 -0600 Bill: A very worth while and thought through letter. My own feelings about this are simple. Each individual has to be accountable to his or herself for actions taken. In the news lately we hear alot about "crimes against humanity". These crimes are done by individuals following orders. We all know "right from wrong". We also know that in todays political world there is no military power greater than ours. If the military oversteps it's bounds by lying, spying on it's own citizens, and perpetuating clandestine operations against it's own citizens then any decent person is obligated to expose the truth. Only lies and evil can live in the dark. If it can't stand the light of day it has to sneak and cringe behind a rock. Most people enlist in the service to help make their country a better place for all. If in their service they find themselves performing against what they believe they will also know in their hearts they are wrong. Print the Cammo Dudes names and numbers and anyone else and any information that digs up the truth. It takes guts to say, "the buck stops here". Remember the old saying, "if might made right, Rome would still rule the world". Rome the greatest power of it's time was brought down by corruption and greed. Most historians say, man does not learn from history". Lets assume the Camo dudes and anyone else getting rich from Area 51 doesn't either.. Thank You for your letter.... Mike

Message #8

From: Dave B <bethland@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:56:35 -0500 Bill Bailey wrote: > ...... I'd be interested to hear some others. > Another viewpoint (after reading Mike Galloway's reply)...... Are all "Cammo Dudes" the same? Or would publishing the names and addresses indict all of them when only a few are the "bad apples" who harrass the tourists and try and entice people to cross the Area 51 border. While I've never seen a "Cammo Dude" or been near Area 51, I would think the security force there is in some ways like a large city police force; most are just doing a job, and don't engage in these unethical, if not illegal practices. Publishing the names and addresses of all, when just a few are guilty, would be not only be un-fair, but probably counterproductive. Dave Bethke in Houston

Message #9

From: Bill Bailey <billsf@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: AREA 51: Cammo Dudes: Publication of Names and Addresses Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 22:33:04 -0700 At 02:39 PM 9/14/96 -0600, Mike Galloway wrote: >Bill: > > A very worth while and thought through letter. My own feelings about this >are simple. Each individual has to be accountable to his or herself for >actions taken. In the news lately we hear alot about "crimes against >humanity". These crimes are done by individuals following orders. We all >know "right from wrong". Mike, thanks for your reply. I now realize that after introspection, that you are quite correct. I made the statement that I didn't feel that the Cammo dudes were responsible for their individual actions. That statement of mine is flat out wrong. My error and I apologize. Indeed, as individuals, they are responsible for whatever actions of theirs are illegal. Perhaps if individual memebers of a police department have engaged in brutality or excessive force, they must surely be held responsible for what they did, to the fullest extent of the law. I suppose I was making a feeble attempt at trying to point out that the "powers that be" are ultimately responsible for creating a climate that fosters an atmosphere where enforcement personnel are out of line. To be sure, individual members of let's say the Chicago PD were very much responsible for the police riot at the Democratic Convention in 1968. But ultimately, at least in that case, the Mayor's office, the Chief of Police and on up the ladder were responsible for creating an atmosphere where excessive force is tacitly condoned or encouraged. Eliminate the source of the problem and you've eliminated the problem. Policy is always established at some executive level. My feeling is, the security personnel at Groom Lake somehow have the blessings of their command, but that's unsubstantiated and I sure can't prove that. I doubt that the Groom Lake Command feels as though security should be fixing the flat tires of tourists, and handing out guide maps like Park Rangers!! They are the one's that are faceless and nameless and must be held responsible, totally, for their subordinates. I do reiterate my concern that the published information surely must not be misused to engage in a harassment campaign against Groom Lake Security personnel. Free speech and the free flow of information must never be discouraged. But I'm very clear on the point that the paranoid secrecy at Groom Lake is not the responsibility of the Cammo Dudes, but emanates from a much, much higher level of authority. The Cammo Dudes are the manifestation of the problem, but definitely not the source of it. Mike, thanks for your thoughts on this. Bill > We also know that in todays political world there is no military >power greater than ours. If the military oversteps it's bounds by lying, >spying on it's own citizens, and perpetuating clandestine operations against >it's own citizens then any decent person is obligated to expose the truth. >Only lies and evil can live in the dark. If it can't stand the light of day >it has to sneak and cringe behind a rock. > Most people enlist in the service to help make their country a >better place for all. If in their service they find themselves performing >against what they believe they will also know in their hearts they are >wrong. Print the Cammo Dudes names and numbers and anyone else and any >information that digs up the truth. It takes guts to say, "the buck stops >here". > Remember the old saying, "if might made right, Rome would still rule >the world". Rome the greatest power of it's time was brought down by >corruption and greed. Most historians say, man does not learn from history". >Lets assume the Camo dudes and anyone else getting rich from Area 51 doesn't >either.. > >Thank You for your letter.... > >Mike > > >

Message #10

From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) (by way of "A.J. Craddock" <craddock@ix.netcom.com>) Subject: AREA 51: now Fort Huachuca, Az? Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:14:15 -0700 SNIP The other possible facility that Mr. Craddock is looking for the Fort Huachuka. This facility is where a lot of army intelligence gathering takes place, as well as testing of new electronic equipment. There's been rumors on the net (again, skepticism is in great need) that the fort is where some of the alledged alien remains from Wright-Patterson wound up. SNIP That's the one, Fort Huachuca, Az. For those of you using search engines, you may want to note the correct spelling. There are several Web Pages about the place and its activities, and it is located near Sierra Vista, Arizona, just North of the Mexican border. It is the home of Libby Army Airfield, the Technology Integration Group and the Technology Assessment Group amongst others. Their published reports available for downloading include such cutting edge topics as "Windows 95 - Installation". Good to see that our tax dollars are hard at work keeping Microsoft on their toes. Tony Craddock

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Created: Sun Sep 15 02:25:42 1996