01 - "James R. Graham" <jrg@wo - "Sightings" episode on comet sampling and Utah base 02 - wings@sky.net (Wayne Buss - Re: Holloman AFB Secret Programs? 03 - James R Graham <jrg@world - The Utah Test and Training Range (UTTR) 04 - Ken MacGray <mayor@tiac.n - Interesting Land Uses 05 - Michael Ravnitzky <MikeRa - can you guys post this 06 - Dan Zinngrabe <quellish@s - Re: AREA 51: Re: Holloman AFB Secret Programs? 07 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - French Web Site on Area 51 [Social] 08 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Bullhead City, AZ, UFO Sighting (circa 1990) 09 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Kevin Randle on Area 51 [UFO Updates list] 10 - campbell@ufomind.com (Gle - Miscellanea: Hungarian on X-Files? Klass on Simpsons? etc. 11 - dpk@acpub.duke.edu (Dean - Area51: Randle/Friedman MJ-12/Area51 Thread [UFO Updates List] 012 - dark_iz@juno.com (Andrew - Index
From: "James R. Graham" <jrg@world.std.com> Subject: "Sightings" episode on comet sampling and Utah base Date: Sun, 1 Dec 96 12:37:44 -0400 Hi all, I was watching the show, Sightings, and they had a clip about plans to obtain a sample of a comet's tail, called Project Stardust or something like that. Off their website (http://www.scifi.com/sightings/web1030/news.html), I got the following: "This time, Stardust will jettison its canister of samples into the Utah Desert.It will then be transported to a secret Military Weapons Base, identified only as the UtahTest and Training Range." It's under the non-sensationalist heading, "COSMIC GERMS!". Is the "UtahTest and Training Range" just some run-of-the-mill military base that Sightings is sensationalizing or is there something interesting there? Anybody ever hear of it? Also, an unrelated question: does anyone know if the military ever uses ground transportation to enter/exit the base? Or is air the primary method of egress/ingress. james Message #1
From: wings@sky.net (Wayne Busse) Subject: Re: Holloman AFB Secret Programs? Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 19:48:48 -0600 (CST) Re: Message #3, Holloman AFB Secret Programs? >The site I visit is called RATSCAT. The site itself >is not classified but what they do there is. They have another site >deeper into the desert called the RAMS site. All I know is that they do >testing on secret new aircraft. I have reason to believe that the >goverment is or has developed their own flying saucer, possibly nuclear >powered. If you have heard anything about this I would love to know. >Thanks >Larry Melton RATSCAT is an acronym for Radar Target Scatter, basically a radar cross-section site to evaluate aircraft and systems. RAMS is the same thing; Radar Advanced Measurement System. The facilities apparently are not secret, but what they are testing may be. EG&G is a contractor at the HOLLOMAN AFB facility. EG&G MANAGEMENT SYS. OPERATIONS AND MAINTENANCE RATSCAT OPERATIONS P. O. DRAWER U HOLLOMAN AFB, NM 88330 Here are two interesting gif's related to RATSCAT: http://www.rl.af.mil:8001/History/RADC51-71/Radar7.gif (Rome Lab info on RATSCAT and related radars) http://www.sysplan.com/Products/Range/range.GIF (What appears to be a saucer-shaped object on a radar cross-section pylon) Wayne Busse wings@sky.net wbusse@johnco.cc.ks.us http://www.sky.net/~wings Message #2
From: James R Graham <jrg@world.std.com> Subject: The Utah Test and Training Range (UTTR) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:08:45 -0500 (EST) I did some digging (OK, a metacrawler search) and found some info on the UTTR. Check out the following URL: http://loft-gw.zone.org/clui/database/military/uttr1.html. The UTTR sits on 1.8 MILLION acres of land and contains Dugway, the home of the Army's chemical and biological weapons testing. I guess that would be the logical site for any nasty extraterrestrial bugs found in a comet's tail. There sure is a lot of land out there... james Message #3
From: Ken MacGray <mayor@tiac.net> Subject: Interesting Land Uses Date: Mon, 2 Dec 96 22:39:05 -0500 Here are some interesting Nevada military installation references that I discovered upon poking around The Center for Land Use Interpretation <http://loft-gw.zone.org/clui/clui/clui1.html> ("a catalog of unusual and exemplary land use sites"). While this is not directly involved with the UFO phenomenon or Area 51, it is presented as information regarding the various military facilities strewn across the desert... However, the Nellis Range Complex entry below does mention Area 51 by name... And the Area 51 Research Center is number one in the "Cultural Sites" land use category. 8) Thanks to James R. Graham <jrg@world.std.com> for pointing in the right direction... -Ken Basecamp ------------ Site Name: Central Nevada Test Site Base Camp Location: 170 miles N of Las Vegas, 10 miles N of Warm Springs State: NV Land use category: Nuclear-Radioactive Sites Description of site: The Central Nevada Test Site Base Camp is a cluster of small technical buildings and sheds, and an airstrip. It was the control point and staging area for a second continental nuclear test site. It is now used primarily by the Air Force in association with activities at the Nellis Range Complex. It was originally developed for several high-yield nuclear tests associated with antiballistic missile systems. A second nuclear test site was needed for tests that were considered too large for the Nevada Test Site, located 80 miles south, as there was concern about ground motion effecting facilities at the Nevada Test Site, as well as Las Vegas. However, after the first nuclear test, the area was considered geologically unsuitable, and the group of tests were conducted in Alaska. The test, named Project Faultless, was conducted at a location 20 more miles north, in 1968. Visitation Information: Restricted area, but usually unmanned. (That's an interesting concept... -Ken) From Warm Springs, head east on U.S. Highway 6 for 91/2 miles to the base camp, visible on the north side of the highway. Yucca Mountain Nuclear Repository ------------------------------------------- Site Name: Yucca Mountain Nuclear Repository Location: 90 miles NW of Las Vegas, 10 miles N of Amargosa Valley State: NV Land use category: Nuclear-Radioactive Sites Description of site: Located on the western edge of the Nevada Test Site, Yucca Mountain is the only site being considered as a repository for the nation's commercial nuclear waste. A $6 billion program to study the site and partially build the repository has been underway since the early 1980's and a repository won't open until at least 2010, if ever. The state of Nevada vows that it will not permit it to open. More Information: Public Affairs: (702) 295-3521 Shoal Nuclear Test Site ---------------------------- Site Name: Shoal Nuclear Test Site Location: 80 miles SE of Reno, 28 mile SE of Fallon State: NV Land use category: Nuclear-Radioactive Sites Description of site: One of two major underground nuclear tests in Nevada that were performed off the Nevada Test Site. Conducted in 1963, Shoal was an experiment to study earthquake effects. A 12 kiloton bomb was detonated 1,200 feet below the surface. The site now is unmarked and unfenced, though radioactivity remains in the soil below the surface. There are visible remnants of the test at the site, including cement pads, and a shaft portal. Visitation Information: From Fallon take Highway 50 east 32 miles to State Highway 839. Make a right, go south for five miles to G Z Canyon. Make a right again, going west a little less than a mile to Ground Zero (it will be on your right hand side). Faultless Nuclear Test Site -------------------------------- Site Name: Faultless Nuclear Test Site Location: 190 miles N of Las Vegas, 32 miles N of Warm Springs State: NV Land use category: Nuclear-Radioactive Sites Description of site: Faultless was a large (approx. one megaton) underground nuclear experiment conducted in 1968 to test the possibility of developing the area as a second nuclear testing location. The central Nevada Test Site would have hosted several high-yield nuclear tests associated with antiballistic missile systems; however, faulting and slumping of the ground during this first test proved that the area was geologically unsuitable, and the group of tests were conducted in Alaska. Visible remnants include an eight-foot thick, steel lined column which has an Atomic Energy Commission plaque on it. Visitation Information: From Warm Springs, head east on U.S. Highway 6 for 25 1/2 miles to the road which would go to Lunar Crater. Instead of going south to Lunar Crater, go north on a dirt road for 12 miles. There will be a curve, and then a stop sign. From the stop sign go straight about two and one half miles to Ground Zero. Nellis Range Complex: --------------------------- Site Name: Nellis Range Complex Location: 30 miles NW of Las Vegas State: NV Land use category: Military Sites Description of site: In this 4,000 square mile restricted zone are bombing ranges littered with live munitions, secret Air Force bases, unregulated hazardous waste burn pits, and radioactive material dispersal areas, and these are just the things we know about for sure. The Range includes Groom Lake (AKA Dreamland and Area 51), the CIA/Air Force research and development base which is known as the proving ground for numerous advanced aircraft and weapons systems. It is the location of burn pits used for the illegal and dangerous disintegration of hazardous material from the base and from R&D labs like Lawrence Livermore. At the north end of the range is the Tonopah Test Range, managed by Sandia National Labs, and used for various things including penetrator bomb development and several plutonium dispersal tests. On the west side is Indian Springs Auxiliary Field, the primary Unmanned Aerial Vehicle test base for the Department of Defense. ________________________________________________ Ken MacGray/Administrator - Virtual Village BBS 508-368-4222 mayor@tiac.net - http://www.tiac.net/users/mayor Area 51 Images/Lore/News: http://www.tiac.net/users/mayor/a51/ Message #4
From: Michael Ravnitzky <MikeRav@ix.netcom.com> Subject: can you guys post this Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 00:22:29 -0600 AREA 51 CHART NOW DECLASSIFIED AND AVAILABLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT Want to get an official U.S. Government Map of Area 51 and Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada? The Nellis Air Force Base Range Chart has been declassified is now available to you from the government for a couple of bucks. They have black and white OR beautiful color prints, either suitable for framing or posters or laminated. It won't cost 15 dollars, but you have to provide that statement in order to get them to respond to the request. The actual fee is much lower. To get your copy, simply send in the following form letter to the government office shown. Don't send any money until you hear from them. PS: You can also get a similar map for your town, or any other area you want. _____________your address _____________ _____________ date TO: Helen Sharetts-Sullivan, Ph. 703-285-9315 Freedom of Information Act Office Mail Stop A-7 Defense Mapping Agency HQ 8613 Robert E. Lee Highway Fairfax, Virginia 22041-2137 USA FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST Dear Ms. Sharetts-Sullivan: Pursuant to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request a [choose one or both] ___black and white ___color copy of the Nellis Air Force Base Range Chart. I am a private individual requesting this record for noncommercial purposes. I agree to pay up to $15 for reasonable costs associated with this request. Please note that as a noncommercial requester, I am entitled to the first 100 pages of duplication and first 2 hours of search time at no cost. [OPTIONAL: I am also interested in obtaining a black and white/color copy of the DMA map of this specific area __________________________.] Sincerely, ___________________your name ___________________your telephone number [optional] Michael Ravnitzky mikerav@ix.netcom.com Message #5
From: Dan Zinngrabe <quellish@shore.intercom.net> Subject: Re: AREA 51: Re: Holloman AFB Secret Programs? Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 01:33:27 -0500 A little bit more info on RAMS.... During the early part of the B-2 (Advanced Technology Bomber at the time) program it was decided that they would have to do so many (secret) radar cross section tests on the B-2, with a variety of frequencies, etc. that it would justify building a new facility. Due to time and budget constraints they had to use as much off-the-shelf hardware as possibly, yet still keep the *very* tight security surrounding the shape of the aircraft in particular and the program in general. What Northrop and the Air Force ended up doing was designing a facility similar to the Lockheed RCS range at Helendale- but it proved to be a bit too expensive. They scaled it down a bit, and figured out that for the stinger (the pole that holds up the model to be tested) they could modify an existing design- a Minuteman III ICBM silo! During the day it would look rather innocent to anybody who saw it, and by night the electronics would fire up, the stinger would go up, and models would be tested. The Soviets noticed and protested the building of a new SILO as being a violation of arms control treaties! Of course, the US responded by stating simply that it was a "test facility"- and you can bet the Soviets never took their eyes off it after that! (Paraphrased from Bill Scott's "B-2 Story"- if anyone wants info on the book, e-mail me. Might be a good addition to the Research Center catalog) Dan Z Message #6
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: French Web Site on Area 51 [Social] Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:30:57 -0800 It is always amusing to see the base we know and love described in other languages. On this site, we get it en francais. At http://www.geocities.com/Paris/7715/z51.html -------------------------------------------------------------- La Zone 51: La Zone 51 est un terrain militaire situe aux Etats-Unis, a 95 miles de Las Vegas. Au centre de ce terrain se trouve une base militaire pres de la plage du Groom Lake. Sur les cartes americaines, cette zone n'existe pas mais le gouvernement Russe vous vend des photos satellites pour plus de 30.000F piece. Cette Zone est donc Top Secrete: On y test les derniers prototypes des avions militaires(F-117A...). Pourtant, il s'y passe des choses etranges... Les touristes longeant cette zone y observent des survols d'OVNIS (voir l'episode numero 2 de la premire annee des X-Files). Partant de certain temoignages (voir historique de l'affaire Roswell), on y aurait emmene des debris du crash de 1947. Parmi ces temoins, le scientifique Bob Lazar qui aurait travaille dans un laboratoire d'une zone proche de la 51, la S-4. Il aurait teste des moteurs d'une technologie inconnue provenant d'OVNIS qui seraient encore etudies de nos jours pour en connaitre leur fonctionnement. Lorsque Bob Lazar voulut parler, son passe fut efface par le gouvernement americain. Personne ne le connaissait a LOS ALAMOS LABS, son ancien lieu de travail. Bizarre, non? Apres enquete de certains journalistes americains, on reussit a prouver que Bob Lazar travaillait la-bas. Il disait donc la verite. Mais il n'avait aucun moyen de confirmer ce qu'il disait, n'ayant plus de vie officielle, supprimee par le gouvernement. Le mystere reste entier. Visitez le site "officiel" de Bob Lazar: http://www.banzai-net.com/tridot/s4.htm ------------------------------------------------------------- My best translation without a dictionary: Area 51 is a military zone situated in the US, 95 miles from Las Vegas. In the middle of the zone is a military base close to the Groom Lake playa. On American maps, this zone does not exist but the Russian government will sell you satellite photos for more than $10,000. This zone is therefore Top Secret: the latest prototypes of military aircraft (F-117A...) are tested there. However, strange things have happened.... Tourists line this zone and observe overflights of UFOs (see episode #2 of the first year of the X-Files). According to certain evidence (see history of the Roswell affair), the crash debris of 1947 would have been taken there. Among the witnesses, the scientist Bob Lazar who worked in a laboratory in an area close to 51, S-4. He tested the motors of an unknown technology that is still being studied today to understand their functioning. When Lazar chose to speak, his past was erased by the American government. No one knew him at Los Alamos Labs, his former place of employment. Bizarre, non? After inquiry by certain american journalists, it was sucessfully proven that Bob Lazar worked there. He spoke therefore the truth. But he has no means of confirming what he says, not even his vital records (?), suppressed by the government. The mystery remains open. [i.e. "The Truth is Out There."] (par-DOE-nay MAH Franch, pardner.) +------ U F O M I N D -------+ | Glenn Campbell campbell@ufomind.com | | AREA 51 RESEARCH CENTER - Las Vegas & Rachel, Nevada | | UFOs - Gov't Secrets - Philosophy - Psychology | | http://www.ufomind.com Box 448, Rachel, NV 89001 | +------------------------------------------------------+ Message #7
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Bullhead City, AZ, UFO Sighting (circa 1990) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:07:47 -0800 [For the Nevada UFO file...] A correspondent in Bullhead City, AZ, writes: Bullhead City has been here for years and years but wasn't incorporated until 1984. We are about 36 miles south of Kingman. We are on the Colorado River, and the Arizona/Nevada state line is down the middle of the river. Laughlin, Nevada and Bullhead City are basically one community. About 5 or 6 years ago there was an incident that was quickly attributed to a "weather balloon", and died a rapid death. However my adult daughter saw whatever it was and was frightened enough to keep me on the phone until it was out of sight. Apparently it was low enough that I couldn't see it from where I was and she wouldn't let me hang up the phone so that I could drive to her (about 10 minutes because of traffic).She is not a hysterical female. Even as a little girl she was watching the heavens and hoping. Two years ago I bought her a tel- escope to make her watch easier. I think she was scared because it hov- ered in one place and she had heard to many abduction stories, as she kept making reference to that fact. The next day the weather balloon story was in the paper and that was the end of it for everyone. There was one other person that I know who claimed to see it, but in all honesty she is someone who has seen and done everything that you have seen and done. I am going to ask her to write the incident for me and I'll forward it to you. It was daylight around dinner time... sunshine and blue skies in the summer, therefore there was no mistaking it for small aircraft and the Bullhead/Laughlin Airport was not in operation at the time, so that wasnt a factor. Maybe this was more than 5 years ago, but it did happen. I'll ask her to write it all down with a time frame. With so much remote, dark desert around here there is always strange looking things around at night, but with the airport so close now, its hard to be sure. Message #8
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Kevin Randle on Area 51 [UFO Updates list] Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:19:33 -0800 From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:15:39 -0500 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 In a message dated 96-12-03 16:49:30 EST, Clark Hathaway writes: > All of the old military maps covering > military/government tracts within Nevada are > subdivided into 'areas'. Groom Lake and papoose > Lake happen to fall within the borders of Area > 51. As various reference point to the > establishment of a testing facility at Groom Lake > in 1954 for the purpose of development and > testing of high altitude reconnaissance, it would > not be out of the realm of possibility that those > who worked there referred to it as 'Groom' or > 'Groom Lake' while 'Official' channels would more > than likely refer to the facility by the area in > which it was located ... thus, 'Area 51'. > I have been looking for an operational date on > Lockheed's U2. I seem to recall a date either in > 1956 or 1958. The 1958 date would seem to be the > more reasonable one due to development time. > However as you know, I have reason to suspect > that the operational date would be much earlier > than this. If true and true that the U2 was > indeed developed at Groom (area 51), then it is > possible if not likely that the facility's > operational date in fact precedes 1954 as well. > Kindest Regards, > Clarke Hathaway Is it really necessary for us to go through the entire history of the Groom Lake facilities again. There has been no evidence presented that the designation, as it applies to this facility, Area 51, existed prior to 1960. Nor has there been any evidence presented that the facility was in use in 1954. The U2 connection began about a year later. Speculation is interesting but it proves nothing. We need some hard data about the existence of Area 51, referring to this specific place that predates the publication date on the MJ-12 Operations Manual and to this point it has not been offered. KRandle Message #9
From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Miscellanea: Hungarian on X-Files? Klass on Simpsons? etc. Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:12:32 -0800 HUNGARIAN ON X-FILES? / KLASS ON SIMPSONS Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:43:15 -0800 From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas) Subject: Hungarian on the X-Files? If you have a copy of Sunday's X-Files on video tape, take a look at the last few frames, just before the closing credits. Cancer man lays done a file folder, and the camera pans over to it and we catch a quick glimpse of its cover. It sure looks like our ancient Hungarian alphabet! See http://exo.com/~fredh/alphabet.htm I've viewed it several times and still can't say for sure. There is some reason the camera panned over there, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was it. IF THAT AIN'T CONSPIRACY ENOUGH, an interesting reference also showed up in Sunday's episode of the Simpsons. Homer is worried that Marge might leave him, so he buys a weeks worth of tickets for her at a theatre she seems to be interested in. One of the tickets sounded like "An Evening with Philip Klass". "Just one evening?" says Homer. ================================================================= JANET AIRCRAFT AT OKC From: William Seiber <will@escape.com> Subject: Janet seen in OKC!! To: campbell@ufomind.com Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:14:37 -0500 (EST) A very strange thing happened to me tues nov 26 on my way to the airport to travel for the holidays. I live in the Oklahoma city area and was going to catch a flight home for the holiday. I was near the terminal building and driving past the general aviation tarmac where many large jets sit and wait to be refurbished. I noticed a white 737 sitting on the same ramp with a few people standing around the bottom waiting for something. I could not get near it but I did manage to get a picture of it although with b&w film. I am certain it was a janet airliner since I have gone to the janet terminal many times in Vegas and watched them come and go. I did not have my scanner so I could not listen in and catch its callsign nor could I see its tail number. (Security is tight after the bombing here!!!) While waiting for my flight I watched it taxi and takeoff on runway 35L and of course it made a shallow turn to the west, northwest. This all took place about 2:15 pm central time tuesday! I cannot think of why it was there, there is Tinker AFB only 8 miles to the east and you would think it would fly in to there if it were on a military flight. Also, there is a the Oklahoma air national guard but the ramp for that was across the runway on the other side of the airport! [Consistant with a previous report of Janet's undergoing maintanance at OKC -- GC. ================================================================= EGYPTIAN THANKS Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:14:45 CDT Subject: gratitude From: egypt10@juno.com (Egypt N Ankhari) Thanks to you all. Your information is very helpful, and I enjoy reading what you have to say. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and keep up the good work. Egypt egypt10@juno.com ================================================================= TERRORIST GRAMMAR Subject: Correct grammar and Area51 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 96 19:10:26 -0400 From: "James R. Graham" <jrg@world.std.com> I think that correct grammar/spelling shood bee a preereckwisit to invadeing top seekret militerry instalashuns. Mr. Y ================================================================= "DECLASSIFIED" CHART Regarding the offer of an "Declassified" Nellis chart, the proper term is "unclassified," as it was never secret and shows nothing of the base. (We announced the availability of the chart a couple of years ago in the Desert Rat.) Still, it is a useful document. ================================================================= SHOULD SOMEONE TELL HIS MOM? Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 22:42:05 -0500 To: campbell@ufomind.com From: tpoole@radix.net Subject: John Mark Nickels exposed John Mark Nickels is actually using his mother's e-mail account. Her name is Paula A. Nickels and tricon.net is a provider in the Kingsport, Tennessee region. I guess we all have our imaginations! This can be confirmed through Dave Sieg, a Tricon.net administrator at dave@tricon.net ================================================================= HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW [A correspondent writes...] I spent seven years with the military (Army) mostly on the east coast and across the Atlantic. All I can say is that one of the catch phrases that I heard a lot was, "Disinformation in plain view obscures what is really there." Message #10
From: dpk@acpub.duke.edu (Dean Phillip Kanipe) Subject: Area51: Randle/Friedman MJ-12/Area51 Thread [UFO Updates List] Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:29:43 -0500 From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:55:46 -0500 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: UFO UpDate: MJ-12 and Area 51 In the last few weeks, a number of questions have surfaced about MJ-12 and Stan said he'd answer them after he finished his most pressing business. It seems that he has returned home for a few weeks now, so I think it's time to re-ask the questions. First, we all know there is a questioned document expert, identified by Phil Klass (oh that dreaded name) as PT, who told Stan, and told me, that he had concluded that the Truman memo was a fake because the signature had been taken and modified from another document dated October 1, 1947. If such was the case, that the signature had been transplanted, that argued that the document was a fake. PT also said that the typewriter used to write the Truman memo didn't exist until 1966 which also meant the Truman memo was a fake. Stan responded that he had spoken to one or two experts who had said that the typewriter did exist in 1947. Stan has yet to tell us how to locate those experts to verify their expertise and their statements. On the other hand, Stan has spoken to PT and in fact, sent him the MJ-12 documents for his analysis. A fact that Stan has failed to mention. Second is the reference to Area 51 in the new, and improved MJ-12 Operations Manual. The best evidence available is that there was no secret facilities at Groom Lake until after the 1954 publication date of the manual which would mean those writing it in 1954 were psychic. The best evidence is that the term, Area 51, didn't come into use until 1960. If this is true, then it suggests the manual is a fake. I also find it interesting that those violating the law to pass out copies of these classified documents always copy the rather uninteresting bureaucratic parts of the documents but never bother to copy the photographs mentioned. The Eisenhower Briefing refers to autopsies, metallurgy, and photographs, but we don't have that. The Operations Manual also refers to photographs but we don't have those. Seems to me that anyone violating the law and risking jail to send out this material would copy those sections which would be the hardest to fake. Anyway, these are the questions that need to be answered. KRandle ********************* From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 03:24:40 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Kevin: I didn't know you were paying me to work for you or that you somehow had the power to set my activity schedule. Perhaps you could provide copies of PT's analysis of the Truman Forrestal memo? My wife and daughter would prefer I file some of the many reams of paper cluttering our dining and family rooms and the computer area where my daughter is writing her college papers. I also can't find any mention in the Ike Briefing of "autopsies, metallurgy, photographs". Perhaps you could point out these words to us all? Kind of like your suggestion of a Hillenkoetter signature in the briefing which seems to have never been there. Perhaps you could also reread my comments about study of SOM 101 being a work in progress?? Stan Friedman ********************* From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:06:01 -0500 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 In a message dated 96-12-03 03:34:30 EST, Stan Friedman wrote: << Kevin: I didn't know you were paying me to work for you or that you somehow had the power to set my activity schedule. Perhaps you could provide copies of PT's analysis of the Truman Forrestal memo? My wife and daughter would prefer I file some of the many reams of paper cluttering our dining and family rooms and the computer area where my daughter is writing her college papers. I also can't find any mention in the Ike Briefing of "autopsies, metallurgy, photographs". Perhaps you could point out these words to us all? Kind of like your suggestion of a Hillenkoetter signature in the briefing which seems to have never been there. Perhaps you could also reread my comments about study of SOM 101 being a work in progress?? Stan Friedman >> Stan - Why is it necessary to supply you with a copy of PT's report when he spoke to you personally about the validity of the Truman memo? All I was asking for were the names of the experts who claimed the memo was written on a typewriter that existed in 1947 as opposed to PT who said it did not. You said that you would supply the data so that it could be verified. Have you located any evidence that suggests that Area 51 existed in 1954 as mentioned in the Operations Manual? If it did not, or the term "Area 51" was not in use in 1954, doesn't that suggest a major flaw in the manual? Both the Operations Manual and the Eisenhower Briefing have tab references that suggest photographs are available but we never manage to get those. I just think that is an interesting point. Can you supply any reference to a suggestion by me that Hillenkoetter had signed the Eisenhower Briefing? He is mentioned, at the top of the document as the briefing officer and I find it somewhat disturbing that he would have gotten his own rank wrong. I suggested that you supply any documents that he had signed where he had gotten his rank wrong. I would think that since we're both searching for the truth here that some assistance from you would be forthcoming. After all, I didn't demand any payment from you for using my interview with Bill Brazel when you published it in your book. KRandle ********************* From: "Julianne Presson" <earthwrk@cyberport.com> To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:59:05 -0700 ---------- > From: KRandle993@aol.com > Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:06:01 -0500 > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 > Have you located any evidence that suggests that Area 51 existed in 1954 as > mentioned in the Operations Manual? If it did not, or the term "Area 51" was > not in use in 1954, doesn't that suggest a major flaw in the manual? All of the old military maps covering military/government tracts within Nevada are subdivided into 'areas'. Groom Lake and papoose Lake happen to fall within the borders of Area 51. As various reference point to the establishment of a testing facility at Groom Lake in 1954 for the purpose of development and testing of high altitude reconnaissance, it would not be out of the realm of possibility that those who worked there referred to it as 'Groom' or 'Groom Lake' while 'Official' channels would more than likely refer to the facility by the area in which it was located ... thus, 'Area 51'. I have been looking for an operational date on Lockheed's U2. I seem to recall a date either in 1956 or 1958. The 1958 date would seem to be the more reasonable one due to development time. However as you know, I have reason to suspect that the operational date would be much earlier than this. If true and true that the U2 was indeed developed at Groom (area 51), then it is possible if not likely that the facility's operational date in fact precedes 1954 as well. Kindest Regards, Clarke Hathaway ********************* From: KRandle993@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:15:39 -0500 To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 and Area 51 In a message dated 96-12-03 16:49:30 EST, Clark Hathaway writes: > All of the old military maps covering > military/government tracts within Nevada are > subdivided into 'areas'. Groom Lake and papoose > Lake happen to fall within the borders of Area > 51. As various reference point to the > establishment of a testing facility at Groom Lake > in 1954 for the purpose of development and > testing of high altitude reconnaissance, it would > not be out of the realm of possibility that those > who worked there referred to it as 'Groom' or > 'Groom Lake' while 'Official' channels would more > than likely refer to the facility by the area in > which it was located ... thus, 'Area 51'. > I have been looking for an operational date on > Lockheed's U2. I seem to recall a date either in > 1956 or 1958. The 1958 date would seem to be the > more reasonable one due to development time. > However as you know, I have reason to suspect > that the operational date would be much earlier > than this. If true and true that the U2 was > indeed developed at Groom (area 51), then it is > possible if not likely that the facility's > operational date in fact precedes 1954 as well. > Kindest Regards, > Clarke Hathaway Is it really necessary for us to go through the entire history of the Groom Lake facilities again. There has been no evidence presented that the *Œƒ+\@it applies t*R`is facility, Area 51, existed prior to 1960. Nor has there been any evidence presented that the facility was in use in 1954. The U2 connection began about a year later. Speculation is interesting but it proves nothing. We need some hard data about the existence of Area 51, referring to this specific place that predates the publication date on the MJ-12 Operations Manual and to this point it has not been offered. KRandle _______________________________________________ UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - ++ 416-932-0031 An E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of UFO Related Phenomena Message #11
From: dark_iz@juno.com (Andrew W Martin) Subject: Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:18:28 EST Recently I ran into a web page allowing one access to records of declassified satellite recon. The search criteria includes extreme northern, southern, eastern, and western latitude/longitude and a range for the dates taken. In the immediate area around Area 51 (up to the closest line of degree) I found, since 1950 or so, a rather large listing of availiable photos. The page is at http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/Webglis/glisbin/search.pl?DISP Since it would be rather expensive to order ALL of the photos, it would help if someone gave me the date that construction was begun on Area 51 (or at least when it's operations began) and the extreme borders of it (accurate to seconds, hopefully). Thanks. -Andrew 'Dark Iz' Martin <210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210> "Have you heard the word?" -Stove delivery guy Coming soon: the Andy's Constant (210) Home Page! <210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210><210> Message #12
Sponsored by the Area 51 Research Center (www.ufomind.com)
Created: 4 Dec 1996