Gene Huff's Response to "Lazar Theory #1"
From: "From: Ken MacGray" <ken@vvcs.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:37:49 -0800
|
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.area51,alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.visitors
From: gufon@ix.netcom.com(Gene Huff)
Subject: Goober's lies, the actual response from Gene Huff
Date: 2 Oct 1997 22:53:29 GMT
Recently, the following post was made by Glenn Campbell, known
to most of you as "Goober". A recent assassination of Goober by
an anonymous person on the Internet has been attributed to me and
has been alleged to be my response to this recent posting. That is
not true and I'll go into that in another post. However, here is my
actual response to the post by Goober.
I don't think I necessarily need to respond to every line so I'll just
cut in and out to the important points. What everyone must realize
is that posts like this are nothing new to the net. This is simply one
of those fishing trips in which someone posts lies and then waits
for someone to respond with the actual, true, information so they
can then adjust their info and use it in a book or an article they
intend to write down the road.
If you'll notice, Goober says this is "one" possible scenario, not
"the" scenario, meaning there are more to come. I have no intention of
playing that game, but I'll respond to this one so you can see how the
fishing trip works. Keep it in mind as this won't happen again. The
only reason Goober even started this attack is because the kids who
run the Tri-Dot web page have been implying that they're going to
post something about Goober being a paid government liar. I don't
think he is that.
>As a "librarian" for the UFO field (through the Ufomind website), it
>is not my job to make conclusions.
Notice he starts out with a hallucination.
> Instead I simply collect the relevant documents and let others draw
>conclusions from them. I can, however, propose theories and draw
>attention to specific earthly facts that are beyond doubt.
Keep this statement in mind as we proceed. There are no documents
even remotely involved here.
>"his (Lazar's) story isn't worth my own time to further
>investigate."
If Lazar's story isn't worth the time to further investigate, what is
Goober doing writing the first of a series of articles about it? The
real reason is that Lazar is the hottest topic in ufology and the most
highly sought ufological interview in the world. Goober has tried
to stop that with deception but, fortunately for those seeking the
truth, no one listens. He wants to divert attention from himself at
this moment, for reasons you all know. Generally, he wants the
attention that is Lazar's and he perpetually covets that notoriety.
>Lazar made up the story on his own based on his own significant
>technical knowledge, his peripheral work with a contractor on the
>Nellis Range and the prior Area 51 alien claims of John Lear (aliens
>eating humans in a vast underground base), which Lazar "cleaned up"
>and made more plausible.
Notice that in this scenario, Lazar has significant technical knowledge
and had peripheral work with a contractor on the Nellis Range. Quite
interesting for a guy with no education and no credentials as Goober
has alleged in the past.
>According to this theory, Area "S-4" is a corruption of "Site 4", a
>real Top Secret radar installation northwest of Area 51 (not south at
>Papoose Lake). It was a place that no one could talk about in 1989
>because purloined Soviet radar were tested there. Lazar has probably
>never been to Site 4, but he could have heard the name.
Please! I was the first one to audibilize (actually type) the fact that
there
was more than one S4 on the Nellis Range and that it was known as
Site 4, not S4, and Glenn Campbell knows that. Now I can't say that
neither Tom Mahood nor Glenn Campbell had ever heard this as
I can't know what goes on in their empty little heads, but if Goober
honestly did not know this, then you'll have to check with Mahood. I
don't really even recall if it was on Usenet or in email, but if you
cancheck with Mahood and catch him on one of those rare occasions he
tells the truth, I'm sure he'll confirm that this is true. Campbell is
acting as though Site 4 is a name Lazar may have heard of. Site 4 is
a place Goober may have heard of, from me. I'll take a polygraph if
necessary to prove that is true. Bob Lazar, and all of his many friends
knew of Site 4 a half decade before Goober escaped out here to
Nevada. If Lazar had "corrupted" Site 4 into S4, don't you think that
people like myself, Joe Vaninetti, (A friend of Lazar's who worked with
Lazar at Los Alamos and who also did work for Los Alamos out here
at Yucca Flats on the Nevada Test Site), and Jim Tagliani, (a friend of
Lazar's who worked out at the Tonopah Test Range when the Stealth
Fighters were there) would have noticed? If this was a giant conspiracy
and a big lie, wouldn't we have told Bob to change the S4 name because
of that? This is ludicrous, even for Goober.
>What was Lazar's motivation? Money.
Bob Lazar's father is a wealthy Los Angeles businessman and Bob has had
a standing offer to work for/with him in California anytime he wants,
and at a helluva (six figure) salary. Lazar stayed with science because
it's his love and that devotion resulted in him being part of the ET
disc back engineering team.
> Under Theory #1, Lazar cooked up
>the story to obtain funding from Las Vegas philanthropist Robert
>Bigelow, who was known to sponsor far-out projects. (Bigelow is still
>investing millions in parapsychology and UFO research but is intensely
>secretive about his activities.)
Lie. I defy any of you to name one project that Bob Bigelow was known
to have funded prior to Bob Lazar going public. What's that I hear,
silence? Goober is trying to twist the facts here. Bigelow was only
known post Lazar. Bigelow might have been known in real estate
development circles back then, but not in ufology. Bob Bigelow first
met Bob Lazar after he saw George Knapp's UFOs, The Best Evidence
on television. He saw that I was a real estate appraiser and called my
office. He explained that he was simply a money man and wanted to get
involved with any sort of research. Ultimately we met with him and
things proceeded from there. It is true that Bigelow has since invested
big bucks in a wide range of projects. If there were any prior to
Lazar, don't you think Campbell would have mentioned them? There simply
weren't any and Campbell knows that. If Bigelow was unknown, and he was
unknown, how would Lazar have known about him? This is beneath even
Goober. I can take a polygraph lest anyone think I'm not truthful about
Bigelow.
>In fact, Bigelow did set up a Nevada corporation for Lazar, the Zeta
>Reticuli 2 Corp., shortly after Lazar went public. It was apparently
>created to fund Lazar's research into "Element 115," which Lazar
>initially claimed he had samples of. (The government has since "taken
>them back.")
And exactly how was it "apparently" to fund research into element 115?
Have any of you seen Campbell provide any evidence of this? Where's all
of this paperwork he directed your attention to earlier in this
article? I'll show you some. Since MaWoody and Goober (Mahood and
Campbell)seem to think that this is so intriguing, I'm going to do
those of you on the net a favor. I'm going to actually post, with Bob
Lazar's permission, the actual patent application from that research.
It was not for particle beam weapons like Mahood alleges, it was not
for 115 research like Campbell alleges. Just wait, and you can take a
look for yourselves. I'll provide the paperwork to reality, not
Campbell. He talks a good game, but I'll produce. There's a difference.
However, it makes this fishing trip more successful for him, but I'll
do it for those interested in the truth.
>While the existence of the corporation is a matter of public record,
>we do not know how much Bigelow spent. We do know that the project
>did not last long, and that Bigelow felt somehow burned by Lazar
>(according to sources who have known Bigelow).
Yes, of course, unknown sources who have known Bigelow. How
convenient. Don't these sources still know Bigelow or did they
burn him, too? Well here's a source who witnessed the whole thing
and I am known and I know Lazar and Bigelow. The actual story
of how things broke down would be so humiliating to Bigelow that
I won't waste it on the net, I'll save it for the book. However,
Bigelow more or less just rented the warehouse space as most of
the equipment moved there was Lazar's. Bigelow did buy 2
computers and a YAG rod, (Yttrium, Aluminum, Garnet) for a
laser, but that was about it. Lazar was not given any large chunks
of money but was paid a very modest salary for which Bigelow was
very demanding. Bigelow's background is in construction and Real
Estate development, (He was actually an appraiser a long time ago)
and he's used to timetables being kept, etc. Research and
Development does not always go that smooth and Mr. Bigs gets
easily frustrated when he doesn't get his way. Stanton Friedman
agrees with that after having associated with Bigelow.
>Under this theory, Lear, Gene Huff, George Knapp and other supporters
>were patsies, not co-conspirators. They were tools used by Lazar in
>pursuit of Bigelow, and later they were his defenders and his
>protection against having to answer too many questions.
Lazar has not only answered "too many questions" but submitted to two
different polygraph sessions by two different polygraphers, gave former
NASA robotics expert Bob Oechsler, written, notorized permission for
Oechsler to check out Lazar's IRS and Social Security records to prove
that he was paid by the Navy, etc. Most of this was right after Lazar
went
public and George Knapp didn't know Lazar from Adam. The only patsies
here are those who read Goober's gibberish and accumulate a knowledge
base of nonsense. Not too mention that no one had ever heard of
Bigelow.
By the way, Oechsler found out that Lazar's IRS and FICA files were
classified. Quite unusual for a guy who is being accused of making up a
UFO story, don't you think? Oechsler also found out that the E6722MAJ
on Lazar's W-2 (that's from memory so I might have misstated a letter
or number there) meant that this code meant Department of Energy,
Kirtland Air Force Base, and the point of contact was MAJ, (yes, we're
back to the Majestic codes). This was eight years ago and Lazar has
answered more questions than anyone in ufology, period.
>The government itself was taken by surprise by Lazar's claims. It may
>have indeed conducted its own investigation to see if any classified
>information was release (since Lazar did have a security clearance).
>Real FBI agents like "Mike Thigpin" could have visited Lazar. Recall
>that in 1989, the Cold War was not yet over, and secrecy at Area 51
>was still extreme.
Really? And how does Goober know Lazar had a security clearance?
Where's the paper trail? He heard me, Knapp, or maybe even Lazar
himself say that and has not checked out or verified one thing. I
point this out to simply show that Goober hasn't substantiated anything
positive or negative about Lazar. The man's name was Mike Thigpen,
not Thigpin, and he was an OFI agent, not an FBI agent. The OFI is
a pseudo-secret organization that is involved in background checks of
people who get high clearances at the Nevada Test Site, Nellis Test
Range (and elsewhere I presume). They have a local Las Vegas office,
though they're not listed in the phone book, and are based out of the
Office of Personnel Management back in Pennsylvania. Sorry to throw so
many facts into Goober's stupid little story.
>Lazar, however, has never been to Area 51. I can say this with
>confidence after talking to people who have. While no one can say
>whether Lazar has ever been to Papoose Lake, which is still a closed
>area, the claim that he had flew to Area 51 enroute to Papoose should
>have been easily provable. Lazar should be able to describe innocuous
>details of the place, like what the cafeteria or plane arrival area
>looked like. Lazar has never done this, even though he supposedly
>revealed much bigger secrets.
What?! Not only did Lazar identify where the cafeteria was, he
identified where the vending machines and television(s) in the
cafeteria were. Do you think George Knapp honestly never asked these
questions or tried to double check or verify this information? Goober
must be crazy.
However, Bob Lazar is no authority on Area 51 as he didn't work there.
The only time he went to the cafeteria was when he was taken there
to wait on his first night out there, the night they made all of the
security threats to him. After that, Lazar was simply transferred to
the bus with the blacked out windows and taken down to S4. In fact, he
identified that he was at Papoose by using estimated speed, the time on
his watch, and direction, meaning the glow of the setting sun over the
mountains to the west, to figure out that he was at Papoose. The base
was only known as S4, they didn't call it Papoose. Of course the actual
determining factor of his assessment of the location of S4 was by the
size of the dry lake bed outside of the hangars.
George Knapp was a news anchor at the KLAS, the Las Vegas CBS
affiliate, at this point in time and had, and has, many great contacts
with people who have worked at A-51 in varying capacities from
executives to laborers. Questioning Lazar about area 51 was one of the
first things he did. Goober could have asked and found this out,
presuming he doesn't actually know it, and I would find that hard to
believe, but he did not ask. He lies and thus the fishing trip. Is
everybody having fun? The bottom line is, not fishing line, that Lazar
was usually at area51 when it was dusk or dark and he is by no stretch
of the imagination an authority on where all of the buildings and
hangars are. However, he did identify the obvious, years ago and to say
that he has not is a complete bullshit story and Campbell knows that.
> Some former Area 51 workers have seen so
>little of their workplace that they cannot completely dismiss the
>Lazar claims, but they do know the cafeteria. One former Area 51
>worker who has queried Lazar on these questions regards him as
>evasive. There is no doubt in his mind that Lazar is a fraud.
Right. Another anonymous, alleged, informant who has questioned
Lazar. What's his name? What's wrong with letting it be known that
he questioned Lazar, especially if Lazar gave the wrong answer? I
can answer that. This informant doesn't exist. There is no doubt in
this alleged anonymous person's mind that Lazar is a fraud. How
convenient. He's unknown to everyone else, but Goober knows him
and he agrees with Goober! What a surprise! Did he submit to a
polygraph? Lazar did. Lazar correctly answered the area51 questions
and this has been confirmed. People who read Goober seem to think
that Lazar walks around answering test questions for complete
strangers. Would any of you do that? Without knowing who they
were or why they wanted to talk to you? Of course not, but you
exist in reality and the informant and these alleged questions do not.
>
>The "Element 115" claim could have come from contemporary articles on
>exotic elements, such as one in Scientific American in May 1989. Like
>Papoose Lake, Lazar's claims about Element 115 can not be disproven
>because no one has been there.
Wait a minute. Lazar told me, Lear, Vaninetti, Tagliani, their wives
and all of their girlfriends and the rest of our social circle about
115 long before May of 1989. It doesn't wash Goob.
>
>I don't mean "fraud" in any negative sense, however.
Of course not. Why would anyone think that Goober lying and
erroneously calling Lazar a fraud would be negative?!:) What he
means is that if he keeps lying and twisting what little he
knows, you might not keep buying his Lazar products.
>For one thing he made Area 51 the most popular secret base in the
world.
Wow! For the first time ever, Goober admits that Lazar made area51
famous, not him! Maybe Goober takes short vacations into reality after
all.
>In a sense, Lazar's story is a lot deeper than he is.
Of course, Goober doesn't know Bob Lazar at all and has no idea how
deep or shallow he might be. He'd like you to think he's providing
insight, instead of bullshit.
>Fraud thrives in conditions of secrecy, like that found at Area 51 or
in the >Bigelow organization.
Well, we all know Goober's a fraud and he's the type that thrives via
area 51, but maybe he could give us examples of how fraud thrives in
the Bigelow organization. No, on second thought, he can't think that
fast. He already told us he doesn't know anything about Bigelow.
Bigelow isn't all that secretive, but he only talks to intellectuals
and players, not the riff-raff like Goober.
> It also thrives where people want to believe something
>really badly. Clever con men are opportunists who exploit
>self-deceptions that already exist. They exploit existing beliefs
>and real circumstances to serve their own needs, and they tell the
>believers exactly what they want to hear.
You mean like a con man who moves from Boston to the Nevada desert to
exploit literally everyone and everything? This is the absolute most
explicit description of Glenn Campbell/Goober that I've ever read. Here
he is, flaunting it in your faces while laughing at you behind your
backs and you can't see it.
>(I should note, however, that my own interest in the Lazar story
>brought me to Nevada in 1992 and lead me to my current career as a
>"UFO webmaster." Lazar inspired me with his stick-to-the-facts
>demeanor in interviews, which I still find impressive and have tried
>to emulate. As an unofficial spokesman for Area 51, I have probably
>done things that have given Lazar more credibility than he deserves,
>like not dismissing on camera, but I have no regrets about leaving the
>door open. True or false, I feel the Lazar story has enriched my life
>in many interesting ways.)
Yes, of course. The reason Lazar has credibility is because an unknown
like Campbell doesn't dismiss Lazar on camera. Thanks Goob! You're
so kind. Maybe Lazar will send you a thank you note. Those of you
reading this should keep Campbell's above paragraph in mind when you
read my commentary in another post about the recent assassination of
Goober on the Internet. Remember, he moved here because of Lazar and
tries to emulate Lazar and says Lazar has enriched his life. How many
of you can say something that is that sad and simultaneously that sick
and keep a straight face?:) None of you, I hope.
>
>I am not saying that anyone can "prove" Theory #1. There will always
>be ways for believers to believe. But of the theories currently
>available, this is the one that best fits the facts.
Maybe Goober could summarize those facts for us as I haven't seen any.
Lazar has a wealthy father, Bigelow was unknown, Lazar identified
area 51, or what he saw of it which included the cafeteria, precisely,
etc.
The only facts in this post are from me.
>This theory raises logical questions that any journalist could ask
>Lazar, like: "When you got off the plane at Area 51, what did you
>see?" But no unbiased journalist has gotten close to Lazar in years.
Unbiased is the key word here. You see for Goober to be the authority
George Knapp would have to be to close to Lazar to detach and ask
the tough questions. Knapp did that, almost a decade ago, and Lazar
passed with flying colors. Lazar did an interview, in Mike Lindemann's
book, where another physicist who worked at the Stanford Linear
accelerator was present. Lazar met, an talked at length, with Dr.
Edgar Mitchell, astronaut and sixth man on the moon with a Ph.D.
in aeronautics and astronautics. Lazar took a polygraph. Lazar gave
Oechsler permission to check his records. Lazar has met with numerous
people throughout the years, professionals and amateurs, and he's
answered all of the tough questions, tougher than Goober can think of.
>Lazar and his story may still have a lot to teach us about the UFO
>field, but it isn't the lesson Lazar intended.
Wrong. It is specifically the lesson that Lazar intended and Goober has
no insight as to what that is. The lesson is that in the late 1980s
the U.S. government was back engineering ET craft at a base known as
S4 in south central Nevada, a half decade +or- before Goober arrived.
As you can see Goober Campbell provided no paperwork, no names,
and only alleged facts based on things he can't tell you. Well,
take a look at the post named "Lazar/Bigelow Patent" or something
to that effect and see the patent filed by Bigelow and Lazar. It'll
be coming right after I post this.
As the hallucinating, self professed UFO librarian and unofficial
spokesperson for Area 51, he has said nothing and offered nothing. See
my "Trials and Tribulations of Goober" post for my commentary on his
recent net/legal problems.
Index: Bob Lazar
Created: Oct 3, 1997
